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Post by SteveKowalski on Jan 19, 2016 9:56:26 GMT -5
My exact thought was POACHERS don't fill out diaries... But why would you fish/poach/harvest on a wild trout stream which was always considered difficult, when there are stocked streams with stupid 2 year olds not too far from there. I can see natural harvesters on both creeks more than people having a bigger impact. They said the word otter, but possibly mink too. Those friggin' weasels are lousy on the Niagara. I see them more than rats these days and until 2 years ago, I had only seen one in all my years of river/stream walking If they're here, I would bet everywhere with fish to eat. Hopefully trappers are still active in Ny.
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Post by Doug Pennyloff on Jan 19, 2016 10:19:39 GMT -5
Re the Wiscoy...umm just maybe sum Human predation? The harvesters don't fill out diaries. Need to change the rules on Wiscoy. And arrest those who violate them. No more fish for the table...see more full stringers of breeder fish than mergansers cuz > Trout; open April 1 - Oct 15, minimum size 10 inches, daily limit 3 per person. Put 3 in the car and get another 3. Its cool...Great regulation eh? Kill the breeders. These completely wild browns have plenty of smarts and woody cover to hide from a few birds. Plus they move all over that creek. Look in the mirror for the cause / answer. I find it hard to believe that people are eating that many fish from the wiscoy that it would make much of an impact. For one, not that many people fish it compared to years ago. For people who want to catch a few fish for dinner there are plenty of better places. Second, there were always tons of fish in that creek. So many that it was often thought that the lack of larger fish was due to there being so many fish. This is the first I have heard of the wiscoy having problems but if it is, I doubt it is because people are eating them all.
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Post by Nick Pionessa on Jan 19, 2016 11:55:10 GMT -5
i have to agree with Byron here. numbers of anglers are down but if any of you have ever been on our wild streams the first week of kill season you know how many spawning size fish go out on the yellow rope of death. it may not be huge numbers of overall trout but it is a big percentage of the fish we really need in wild streams. exactly why the regs an these streams are so backwards. we should be killing 8-10" fish not 12"+. again, if we are talking about regs for a wild stream.
any shocking survey will show how few larger trout are in creeks like the Wiscoy. I'll bet 1/3 at least of those upper class fish get wacked every April.
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Post by Doug Pennyloff on Jan 19, 2016 15:59:14 GMT -5
i have to agree with Byron here. numbers of anglers are down but if any of you have ever been on our wild streams the first week of kill season you know how many spawning size fish go out on the yellow rope of death. it may not be huge numbers of overall trout but it is a big percentage of the fish we really need in wild streams. exactly why the regs an these streams are so backwards. we should be killing 8-10" fish not 12"+. again, if we are talking about regs for a wild stream. any shocking survey will show how few larger trout are in creeks like the Wiscoy. I'll bet 1/3 at least of those upper class fish get wacked every April. I just don't see it. I haven't been on the wiscoy the firtst week of the season in probably 20 years but I just don't think there are more people keeping fish out of those streams then there were years ago. Even if 1/3 of the spawning size fish were being kept, I would think 2/3 of them spawning would be more then enough for the carrying capacity of that stream to be reached. If the numbers of fish are down, it seems like it would have to be because something else has changed. Also, my experience has always been that the bait fishermen tend to only fish a couple of popular access points. Alot of the spots are not exactly easy to access so if numbers are down in those areas that would also point to something other than people eating them being the cause. I do think it is a dumb reg though.
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Post by jeffraz on Jan 19, 2016 22:15:35 GMT -5
I logged a lot of hours on the Wiscoy in 2015 because of Oakta's issues. I feel that it is critical to leave Oakta and Spring alone so whatever is left can hopefully begin to rebuild. I found the Wiscoy to have significantly less fish than it did years ago when I fished it regularly, however, it has been a good 15 years so I guess my observations don't carry much weight when compared to those of us who continued to fish it. I never fish for trout on opening day or even close to it so I cannot comment on the killing that goes on. I can say that I rarely came into contact with another angler on it during the major hatches. I made a point to fish the whole thing from top to bottom. I always found hatches but some stretches had next to no risers for tremendous stretches of creek while other stretches had some fish here and there. My observations are there are certainly less fish than there was 15 years ago, but again, this is my first season in a long time so my comments might not hold water. I found Steve's DEC diary survey data interesting; blaming natural predation seems to be in vogue or a shoe that best fits. I heard a lot of stories about birds on Spring, many of which came from credible sources. I would imagine the predators on the Wiscoy have been there as long as the fish so in my opinion the DEC is full of shit on that one. One thing is certain:
The DEC has really let us down. We are all offering our insights and many of us have complained to the DEC about our first hand observations. Sadly, their milk toast attitude toward issues that should concern them cement the dismal reality that they prefer to speculate, placate, and attempt to sandbag the trout fishing community. Aside from the wild trout that once swam in abundance in these great watersheds, the trout fishing community should be the DEC's greatest asset. If they ignore wild trout fish kills why would they take us seriously? My two cents...
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Post by robroth on Jan 20, 2016 10:46:19 GMT -5
A couple more excerpts from Reg 9’s report:
Concerning illegal harvest:
“Impacts of illegal harvest cannot be known, however consultation with Wyoming County DEC Environmental Conservation Officers revealed that no tickets have been issued for illegal harvest on Wiscoy Creek in the last two years. If we figure over the 19 miles of Wiscoy Creek covered by our surveys from 2006 to 2015 the total reduction of the adult trout population was nearly 18,000 trout (936 trout/mile x 19 miles), it seems inconceivable that this amount of illegal harvest could be occurring”.
Concerning abundance of adult trout:
“The largest wild brown trout we captured on Wiscoy Creek in 2015 was 22.5” (also the largest ever sampled in the Wiscoy), with 6 of the 10 sites producing at least one fish >18”. Table 3 does not show any clear trend in the largest fish in each survey nor at any given site. However, four of the five largest fish captured were captured during 2006-2015 survey years. The abundance of trout >15” remained consistently less than 10/mile from 1978-2006 surveys. Similarly, the abundance of fish >16” in that same period was consistently less than 5/mile. Beginning in 2009, and especially in 2012 and 2015, we observed a dramatic increase in the abundance of larger trout with the number of fish >15” reaching 32/mile and the number >16” reaching 23/mile by 2015. This year’s survey also had, by far, the highest percentage of the electrofishing catch that was >15” (6.38%) and >16” (4.56%) of any sampling year back to 1978.” See also Figure 6.
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Post by byronfishpaw on Jan 20, 2016 21:49:27 GMT -5
Saw more anglers last summer on Wiscoy than ever in the last 23 years. Saw same number of birds, minks, otters, bears, deer, skunk, racoon, cow, pig and wild bearcoon. Also saw same number of DEC Popo = 0.0
If the creek is in decline one sensible action is change the reg to protect more fishes.
Steve- People fish it cuz its in their back yard - closer than stocked water that has even more man pressure. Plus those wild fish are so much more tasty and healthier to the consumer than the rubber ones. Just ask those that fish it.
No fish in NY used to be a joke...
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Post by SteveKowalski on Jan 21, 2016 11:33:22 GMT -5
"People fish it cuz it's in their back yard - closer than stocked water" you got a point there... and again they're not the ones filling out the diaries.
"Saw same number of birds, minks, otters, bears, deer, skunk, racoon, cow, pig and wild bearcoon." What about Badgers? see any Badgers?
BUT you're talking summer, I mentioned otters & minks because I know they can wack a lot of fish all year round. The big predation concern is the Mergansers in the winter. A local nesting population (seen in the summer)is a constant, but a pile of starving birds coming down from the north is the NEW problem Not that I'm defending them, I don't see how the DEC could be/is covering something up... Unless you're talking general ineptness. I don't believe there could be some giant corporate entity (or even farmers)polluting & stifling any investigation. UN-like the Canadian gov't. stopping scientific papers concerning mining from being released, THEY have a problem.
The Wiscoy report states further study should be done on the university level (I.E. DEC has no resources & graduate students need a special purpose)
And I think the bigger stink is the lack of great lakes salmonoids (steelhead dying in the river & kings not showing up) THAT effects more (meat eaters) Charter captains/bait slingers/tourist dollar$
Wild Trout streams is a VERY niche "Special Interest" (all us bitches be nichey)
There could be a letter writing attempt to get Timmy's favorite Nazi involved, the Governor seems to feign concern for the environment, as long as no ones shooting anybody with AK's in the woods...
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Post by Ryan Welch on Jan 22, 2016 10:35:26 GMT -5
I would urge anyone with any questions, comments or concerns at Wiscoy or any other inland body of water in Region 9 to reach out to Scott Cornett. I have been out during a few electrofishing surveys with Scott and have traded emails with him relative to various concerns or questions that I have had and he has always been easy to deal with and a straight shooter in my mind. He is also a fly fisherman that uses our resource and not just some shadowy figure that hides behind a desk ala the Wizard of Oz.
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Post by byronfishpaw on Jan 25, 2016 20:17:37 GMT -5
"Saw same number of birds, minks, otters, bears, deer, skunk, racoon, cow, pig and wild bearcoon." What about Badgers? see any Badgers? BUT you're talking summer, I mentioned otters & minks because I know they can wack a lot of fish all year round. The big predation concern is the Mergansers in the winter. Actually, I'm talking year round
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