|
Post by byronfishpaw on Aug 19, 2015 23:26:49 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by ANDYCAMPING on Aug 20, 2015 14:24:40 GMT -5
What will be in-place to prevent steelhead with lamprey already attached to them from moving up stream? Also, going to be some big fish in a very small stream, lots of red fishing and lifting to be had.
|
|
|
Post by byronfishpaw on Aug 20, 2015 15:34:22 GMT -5
Yeah, I’m not convinced that the carrying capacity of the headwaters can support both the lake run fish plus the existing self-sustaining aka naturally reproducing Trout, including and especially the few areas that still have true wild brook trout. See the DEC report (link below) from 2006 that states “In the tributary streams that have been extensively studied (Clear Creek, Lime Lake Outlet, Hosmer Brook and McKinstry Creek), trout populations are at or near carrying capacity for trout (Cornett 2006)” The issue with the anglers lifting, etc. could be partially addressed by closing any Catt water from say above rt 16 from the end of September through probably end of April. Would also close all tribs that enter the Catt below rt 16 and really anywhere above the dam. Ontario does this with fish sanctuaries. Doing so would eliminate a lot of the available streams for the no-kill artificial only season currently allowed from October to April (which I enjoy). However, this is probably only method to stop a complete ruination of those little waters and would also protect the spawning lake fish. Link to DEC report on the fish passage: www.dec.ny.gov/docs/fish_marine_pdf/fishpasscattck.pdfStill confused as to why there wasn’t another meeting as promised. Maybe I missed it?
|
|
|
Post by robroth on Aug 21, 2015 6:04:02 GMT -5
What will be in-place to prevent steelhead with lamprey already attached to them from moving up stream? Also, going to be some big fish in a very small stream, lots of red fishing and lifting to be had. While there may be a chance that the occasional lamprey may be attacking steelhead in the stream with the consequence of a free ride over the dam, it would be a rarity. Just like salmon, lampreys stop eating for nutrition once they start their spawning run, so they wouldn't be actively feeding once they leave the lake. Also, the main part of the lamprey spawning run does not coincide with the steelhead run. Lamprey spawn in warmer water starting in early June, steelhead are pretty much done and moving out of the streams by that time. So by installing the stop logs, say in mid May, they would be in place before the lampreys even make it to Springville.
|
|
|
Post by Doug Pennyloff on Aug 25, 2015 13:02:34 GMT -5
Yeah, I’m not convinced that the carrying capacity of the headwaters can support both the lake run fish plus the existing self-sustaining aka naturally reproducing Trout, including and especially the few areas that still have true wild brook trout. See the DEC report (link below) from 2006 that states “In the tributary streams that have been extensively studied (Clear Creek, Lime Lake Outlet, Hosmer Brook and McKinstry Creek), trout populations are at or near carrying capacity for trout (Cornett 2006)” The issue with the anglers lifting, etc. could be partially addressed by closing any Catt water from say above rt 16 from the end of September through probably end of April. Would also close all tribs that enter the Catt below rt 16 and really anywhere above the dam. Ontario does this with fish sanctuaries. Doing so would eliminate a lot of the available streams for the no-kill artificial only season currently allowed from October to April (which I enjoy). However, this is probably only method to stop a complete ruination of those little waters and would also protect the spawning lake fish. Link to DEC report on the fish passage: www.dec.ny.gov/docs/fish_marine_pdf/fishpasscattck.pdfStill confused as to why there wasn’t another meeting as promised. Maybe I missed it? The management of the fishery is up to the DEC, but I would think you could keep the upper catt system open well past september 30. Most years there aren't alot of fish up to the dam until later in October and add the additional time for them to go another 15-20 miles to get into the smaller tribs in any concentration. Spring would be the issue in my opinion. I bet you could do a December 30th close with no problems though. Regarding the carrying capacity, it seems the question is if there is really any practical difference from an angling perspective between a six inch resident rainbow and a six inch juenvenile steelhead?
|
|
|
Post by SteveKowalski on Aug 25, 2015 14:18:22 GMT -5
"any practical difference from an angling perspective between a six inch resident rainbow and a six inch juenvenile steelhead?"
I see it as possible windfall for the little wild bows, all those eggs and parr will make some fat and happy cannibals. They may grow bigger than 6 inches!
|
|
|
Post by NateCarr on Aug 26, 2015 22:08:53 GMT -5
Personally, I really enjoy fishing the upper Catt and tribs in the winter months and would be extremely pissed off if it was closed because we need to keep the knuckle heads from raping the redds. The late fall/winter/early spring is probably my favorite time of year to fish those creeks.
Doug - lets not forget that there are also wild brown trout in those streams, if we were to lose those already modest populations there would definitely be a practical difference in the quality of the inland fishery
|
|
|
Post by Nick Pionessa on Aug 27, 2015 5:41:29 GMT -5
couple of factors as concerns the upper fishery being invaded by the lake. the migrating fish do not remove much from the system and in fact typically add to the nutrient base by the natural loss associated with spawning. this is natural and really a keystone in the migratory fish system. most streams in their native range couldn't hold adults due to lack of food so they moved down to bigger water. when they return they don't feed so not much is taken by them.
the parr would have to find a nich amongst their resident cousins. they will, and some of the residents will likely move down to the lake based on studies where both already exist. the trigger to run downstream seems to be random among O. Mykiss based on yearly food supply.
based on existing fisheries, some even on Lake Erie, the resident brown trout seem to do just fine when invaded by lake run Steelhead. there are many streams throughout the GL that have thriving wild browns and thriving wild steelhead. it can work, just not sure if it will work on the Catt system but signs are good.
as far as regulations go there needs to be closure if they want to run a wild fishery. you simply cannot expect people to not snag fish off redds in the low clear water of later winter. if you let them fish they will snag fish and walk through spawning grounds all day. of this i'm certain. there are too many examples right here locally to have any other opinion. i personally would like to see the Catt above rt 16 and all of the tributaries closed at minimum at the first of the year. december first would be even better and closed to at least April first. some may say this sucks and yeah it probably does but do we want to have a self sustaining wild fishery or not? i don't believe one can exist without the other. one look to the province of Ontario and you can see how well that system has worked. lots of wild steelhead simply by letting them get to the spawning grounds and to spawn unmolested by anglers. their fishery has continued to increase every year since that happened while or hatchery system has been the worst ever the past few years.
we need to think about more than ourselves and what we like to fish if we want this to have a self sustaining wild Steelhead fishery.
maybe that's not what they want? could be. the NYS DEC has made several decisions recently that really make me question their logic. it seems way more focused on angler happiness than fishery health. in essence, money over biology. a terrible way to run a fisheries system and there are many local and national examples to back this up. the recent opening of the upper end of a small LE fishery and the zero regulation on the spawning grounds is one prime example. they advertised the fact that it was open all year with a three fish limit. all the way to the head waters. I have lost so much faith in their decision making and i think their recent results with the LE Steelhead fishery raises some serious question questions about their practices.
one thing is for certain, this is happening and the sooner we can petition the DEC to implement regulations the better.
getting this community to agree on anything will be impossible. i would love to see biology lead but i know money will. make your decisions folks and let them be heard.
|
|
|
Post by Doug Pennyloff on Aug 28, 2015 9:25:13 GMT -5
Good thoughs Nick and I generally agree. The one point I would make is that if the trib you are referring to is the one I am thinking, then it is not easily accessed and requires a bit of work to get to those sections. I don't really fish there much anymore, but from what I recall someone would really have to want to get there. Snaggers are lazy by nature so I would guess the impact there would be much less than on the upper catt where easy access is readily available. I would hope that they would not treat the two situations similarly. The fact that there are restrictions on some of the lower catt tribs gives me hope.
|
|
|
Post by jeffraz on Aug 28, 2015 13:56:57 GMT -5
I agree with Nick. I would love to see the well being of the fish be the first priority. I also think that no fishing should be allowed right below the ladder. Fish will stack up there in low water conditions and will most likely be whaled on legally and illegally. This happens already on a section on a small, western NYS stream below a railroad tunnel. I hope the DEC is willing to take sensible input from anglers who are truly invested in this endeavor.
|
|